Episode 540: Joe Nash on DevRel : Software program Engineering Radio

Joe Nash of Twillio’s TwilioQuest discusses the function of developer relations/advocate, which is a job at tech firms in-between builders, advertising, gross sales, and HR. Host Felienne speaks with Nash in regards to the expertise individuals want in the event that they wish to turn out to be developer relations, corresponding to content material improvement, programming, and public talking. Additionally they mentioned what the job usually seems like, and how one can preserve your programming expertise up-to-date sufficient to stay related in your function.

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Felienne 00:00:16 Howdy everybody, my title is Felienne Hermans for Software program Engineering Radio, and in the present day with me on the present we have now Joe Nash. Joe is a developer educator at Twillio the place he helps college students to study with TwillioQuest, Twillio’s academic sport. Beforehand, he was a program supervisor for GitHub training and developer advocate at PayPal. Welcome to the present, Joe.

Joe Nash 00:00:37 Hello there. Thanks a lot for having me.

Felienne 00:00:39 The subject of in the present day’s present is developer relations, and that is in fact a job out of your biography we all know that you’re aware of, however not everybody may truly know what developer relation, what it even means. So, what does that imply? What relations do builders have with whom?

Joe Nash 00:00:58 Yeah, certain. So, I imply, it is a little bit of an advanced reply, which fairly the easiest way to begin, however I suppose most easily put developer relations is enterprise perform, which helps firms attain builders — whether or not these builders be prospects of the corporate, say in a developer-facing product or stakeholders; for instance, in case you have a developer platform like Slack, for instance, the place they need builders to construct apps. So, in each of these circumstances, individuals who do the developer relations function are attempting to assist that firm attain and construct relationships with builders.

Felienne 00:01:27 And I feel there are two phrases right here that may play a job. Generally individuals name themselves developer advocate, but in addition, we hear the time period developer evangelist. Is that the identical factor?

Joe Nash 00:01:38 Sure. So, that is one other space the place the reply is difficult. Developer evangelist was sort of the unique title, and that meant somebody who would exit into software program communities on behalf of an organization and advocate to builders and speak to builders and unfold the phrase of the product to builders. And through the years there’s sort of been a development change to developer advocate and that’s largely truthfully for my part as a result of the phrase evangelist has some spiritual connotations that not will not be essentially acceptable for each neighborhood. However there’s additionally sort of been — and Twillio is an instance of this — an concept that really these are two completely different roles the place evangelists are extra about outward messaging and advocates extra about bringing builders’ considerations again into the corporate. So, some firms do function evangelists and advocates as two separate roles. Different locations it’s simply sort of a development change the place they’ve needed to maintain up with the instances and select a globally relevant phrase.

Felienne 00:02:32 So if we’re in a scenario the place we have now these two roles, is it an evangelist is extra pre-sales and possibly a developer advocate is extra serving to individuals to truly use the product?

Joe Nash 00:02:42 Yeah, I’d say that’s fairly correct. Yeah. Evangelists are usually about consciousness. They are usually high of the funnel. So, serving to builders perceive that this firm exists, and it has developer merchandise, and what they will do with the instruments. After which advocates are fairly often very built-in into the product suggestions life cycle. So, they’ll be out with builders making certain that their suggestions will get integrated into future integrations of the product, ensuring the developer expertise is sweet. There’ll usually nonetheless be some — each roles may have a giant training element. So, each roles will assist builders in implementing the corporate’s resolution. However sure, I feel that the place they play into the gross sales lifecycle is an excellent manner of trying on the distinction.

Felienne 00:03:20 So why does this function exist? What do firms sometimes want developer advocates for?

Joe Nash 00:03:27 So largely the — I suppose the meme, the favored conception of why developer relations exist is that builders are sometimes regarded as onerous to market to. I don’t essentially agree with this, personally, however that’s the fashionable conception. The thought is that in case you are advertising to technical individuals the place ‘technical’ signifies that they’re into software program, they’re into software program improvement, you want individuals who have some understanding of that area so as to communicate their language so as to talk successfully with them. And so, you find yourself with basically technical advertising. And so, that’s sort of the place developer relations is available in. Over time, developer relations has taken on numerous different roles, and also you sort of usually see it basically performing because the glue for a corporation that should tackle builders the place developer relations will interface with each division that interfaces with these builders and act as sort of the technical spokesperson.

Joe Nash 00:04:19 So, developer relations might get entangled in advertising, they could get entangled in gross sales, they’ll get entangled in content material and in product, and the place they’re performing because the ‘developer’ inside the firm. And so, it pops up in numerous locations, numerous completely different roles, and so the principle causes an organization will want developer relations is that if they’re pursuing builders as both a buyer or as a part of a platform play. So should you’re promoting to builders, you want to have the ability to — usually promoting to builders or advertising to builders means empowering builders to construct on high of your APIs, or your software program, your SDKs. And so which means technical content material. And equally, in case you are doing a platform play, you need builders to construct on high of your product, you want a number of it’s essential encourage them to say that ‘hey, it is a place you may construct your enterprise. That is the place you may construct your app on high of.’ And in order that additionally requires a developer within the seat.

Felienne 00:05:09 So the kind of firms that can sometimes have such a job are firms that permit builders to construct upon their platforms. So, they may have, as already stated, an API or an SDK. There’s a place for builders to work together with their tooling, and due to this fact, you wish to assist them in doing that successfully and with pleasure.

Joe Nash 00:05:29 That’s right. Yeah, there’s some nuance there in that we’re more and more seeing firms that concentrate on builders as a client even have developer relations. So, GitHub is sort of an attention-grabbing instance of this. GitHub is a product, clearly, builders use as a product. We come and put our code on GitHub, and that’s probably not a platform play, proper? That’s us utilizing it as a client, however then additionally they have an API and so they even have issues GitHub actions and a method to construct apps on GitHub. And so, GitHub developer relations sort of performs between each the place they’re encouraging builders to focus on GitHub as a platform for their very own purposes, however then additionally they’re simply evangelizing using GitHub as a product with builders. So, you do sort of get each ends of that now. And there are sometimes a DevRel falls on the spectrum between are you a product or are you a platform, and what you want from a DevRel depends upon the place on that spectrum you fall.

Felienne 00:06:20 Yeah, attention-grabbing. So typically you may primarily be wanting builders to make use of your instruments even when they may not customise the instruments with APIs. One thing like GitHub or possibly additionally Slack might be an instance of that or Discord the place you additionally need builders to be your prospects. So, you wish to make certain your product seems cool and has options that builders need, but in addition you wish to assist them in billing in your platform.

Joe Nash 00:06:46 Precisely. JetBrains is one other actually attention-grabbing instance of that, truly.

Felienne 00:06:50 Let’s transfer on to what the job truly seems like. So, I feel many of the viewers would know if you wish to be a programmer, or if you wish to be an architect, these are the abilities that you just might need. However how does that work for a developer relations individual? What kind of expertise — are you want a programmer, are you want a salesman? How do you outline your self, and what are the abilities that you’d want if some individuals which are listening may contemplate changing into such a job? What are the abilities you want for that?

Joe Nash 00:07:19 Positive. So, I feel it’s most likely best to begin with the developer advocate, the developer evangelist function. That is the function I feel most individuals have skilled in DevRel. And while you’re these roles, a number of expertise — relying on the corporate — come into it, however usually stated there’s that side of communication, being on the market in developer communities; it’s a giant distinguished a part of these roles. So, public talking will usually be a part of that skill to not solely be assured and talk a message nicely on stage however to have the ability to craft a story. So, to take your organization’s product and consider tales you may inform round that. And that doesn’t at all times essentially should be product-focused. A lot of developer advocates — for instance, I had a chat I used to do at PayPal, which was about some cool engineering that was taking place inside PayPal that was utterly your orthogonal to make use of of the product for a developer.

Joe Nash 00:08:04 But it surely was an attention-grabbing story and confirmed that we have been performing some actually cool technical stuff, and in order that’s attention-grabbing to builders. So, the flexibility to construct narratives and tells compelling tales is admittedly essential. Usually developer advocates can be concerned in content material creation of every kind. So, historically that’s been weblog posts and social media content material. And so once more, having the ability to inform superb tales in a written format is admittedly helpful in having the ability to make it entertaining. However the academic content material piece is essential for weblog work. And over the course of the pandemic video work has taken a extra essential place as particularly stay streaming has taken on a number of significance versus the place we used to do a number of in individual stuff. In order that’s develop advocacy. A lot of different roles relying on the dimensions and class of develop relations division will fall into DevRel so, know you’ve learn out program administration, it’s the title I’ve had previously. There’s more and more developer centered applications that get run by DevRel. Some departments incorporate documentation and different technical training roles, however I feel these are most likely extra acquainted to a number of of us. I feel the one that can most likely be most novel is the developer advocate function. And so the flexibility to notice, take your improvement expertise and share these is primarily what you’re .

Felienne 00:09:16 What does a job appear like day-to-day? It looks like it’s a really, very thrilling job the place you do many alternative issues: running a blog, going to conferences, doing stay streams. How does that work? How do you manage the work you do?

Joe Nash 00:09:30 There’s no avoiding it. It’s chaotic usually within the peak of my instances and developer advocate, my daily has been outlined by the convention seasons. So, you get very used to for instance, Octobers and Novembers are doomed. That’s when all the large conferences are, you simply get used to residing out residing on a aircraft. Once more, that’s modified in newer years. However yeah, it’s very pushed by the neighborhood and the neighborhood’s wants. I’d say it’s a really reactive function. You’ll usually be responding not solely to what your builders want and what the builders in your neighborhood want and what they’re doing with conferences and occasions, but in addition what’s popping out of your organization. So, developer advocates are very busy this time of yr as a result of numerous large developer going through firms are inclined to do their large product convention on this time, proper?

Joe Nash 00:10:12 We’ve received GitHub Universe, Twillio Sign, all these sorts of issues. And, and that’s when the large bulletins come out. And in order that’s when the weblog posts and the talks should be finished. And so, it’s a very reactive function. One of many tensions I feel, and I think about we’ll speak about this, is maintaining your proficiency as a developer your self. That’s one thing that a number of developer advocates fear about truthfully. As a result of there isn’t essentially at all times time to take a seat down and churn out a number of code. You’ll usually be engaged on samples and demos, and bits and items for weblog posts. However when you find yourself on the content material manufacturing pipeline and touring a lot, it may be, will be onerous to search out that point. And in order that’s one thing that you just’ll usually attempt to make for time for relying on the season. So earlier within the yr, it’s simpler to make time to take a seat down and work on an SDK and that sort of stuff, proper? Yeah. It’s chaos.

Felienne 00:10:56 Yeah, that sounds actually difficult. And the way are you aware, particularly given all these completely different duties you’ve got, how are you aware should you’re doing nicely, proper? In case you’re a developer and at the least there’s so metrics we have now so many customers, or we have now a lot site visitors or so many request shut or options provides. When are you doing nicely? How are you aware that?

Joe Nash 00:11:16 That is, once more, one other query that DevRel likes to ask itself on a regular basis, which any dev individuals listening to it will know is a specific sore level of thoughts. There’s numerous methods of measuring DevRel, relying on what your product slash platform is, it may be slightly bit simpler. So, should you’re a developer advocate, there are every kind of quote-unquote self-importance metrics that you should use simply to get a tough concept of how issues are going daily. How many individuals have been in my speak, how’s my views on my YouTube video going? That sort of factor. However finally, precise success goes to rely upon the instrumentation you’ve got across the precise product and the funnel for the product. In case you work on a, should you’re a DevRel engaged on a product that has a free trial mechanism or a promo code-driven mechanism the place you may give, the place you may have attribution for a developer that indicators up as a consequence of one thing you’ve finished, that’s clearly a far much less nerve-racking scenario to be in.

Joe Nash 00:12:07 It’s a lot simpler to level to your outcomes. Sadly, that’s not the character for lots of merchandise. There’s some actually cool tooling out, and there’s some actually cool measurement on the market. I feel one I at all times quote is the Microsoft Azure staff have actually good monitoring on their documentation. And so, they really know at a really granular stage — or have recognized previously, I don’t know if that is nonetheless true — have recognized previously at a really granular stage, what number of signups to Microsoft Azure come from documentation written by their developer advocacy staff, proper? And so, they’ve that stage of element. And so yeah, the approaches fluctuate. One of many stuff you learn out my bio was the GitHub function and get scholar developer pack, that was sort of a dream function from a metric perspective as a result of we had a scholar centered product, it was a scholar low cost and that was the first quantity, proper? Every thing we did funneled right down to that quantity. And so, what we have been at all times in search of was, hey, right here’s the mechanism by which we moved that quantity ahead. And so, every part comes right down to this north star metric. Discovering that north star metric the place you go is sort of the defining issue of a developer relations function internally, I might say.

Felienne 00:13:07 Yeah, that was going to be my subsequent query, proper? However that is additionally a query that issues for builders. They’re additionally, you may assume, are we counting the variety of customers, or are we counting the variety of customers that follow us for a couple of month? So, I perceive normally it’s actually onerous, however I do nonetheless wish to know from you, what’s the course of to outline the northern star? Is that this a factor you do, you do along with the board of the corporate, or with builders? How does that work, that strategy of deciding this?

Joe Nash 00:13:37 Positive. Yeah. And it’s going to hopefully be a really collaborative course of in observe. It’s usually not, however once more, it comes right down to what’s the firm constructing and the way do builders issue into that gross sales cycle, proper? So, if you wish to speak about a platform firm — say you’re speaking a couple of Slack or a Discord, as we stated — the final word objective there’s that builders construct an utility on high of that platform. That’s a choice that’s very pushed by the developer, proper? It is perhaps an organization that’s constructing the applying, however the option to implement towards Slack might be very pushed by a developer. And so, builders are essential in that gross sales cycle. And so, in that case you may discover which you can, that metrics variety of builders reached are barely extra impactful and highly effective as a result of the developer has an outsized influence on adoption in that case. In different circumstances, in case you have a extra enterprise-focused product, you may discover that the developer truly has much less say within the adoption.

Joe Nash 00:14:35 So truly a great instance, that is video video games. So, video video games actually technically intensive improvement course of, however they’ve very lengthy improvement cycles, and as soon as they’ve locked into expertise they will’t readily change that expertise. And there’s a time period the place they want to decide on what they’re going to construct the subsequent sport on. And as soon as that’s finished, it’s a brief time period. As soon as that’s finished, that’s finished. It’s not so helpful to market to builders in video video games as a result of they don’t have a number of affect on the expertise getting used. You’ll be able to’t, your window of alternative to get to a developer and affect them could be very, very small. And so, in that case reaching builders or variety of builders reached isn’t a brilliant helpful metric, proper? So actually — and that is I feel the place a number of firms have their first obstacles with DevRel — is that they don’t usually ask or don’t usually analyze very intensely, like what’s the function builders truly play in a possible adoption or go or no go on our merchandise.

Joe Nash 00:15:25 Developer relation could be very fashionable. So, it’s very straightforward to say, hey, everybody has builders, everybody hires builders, however builders don’t have equal energy in each firm, proper? The online, I feel the net and APIs that trade, that a part of tech has actually popularized developer relations as a result of constructing web sites, builders do have a number of say in adoption simply usually talking, however that doesn’t essentially apply to in every single place the place you is perhaps using developer relations. And so, in the case of truly understanding how can we outline success? Actually the query is what’s the worth of a person developer coming to your platform? After which you’ve got, whether or not success is extra builders or deeper relationships with builders all comes from that, proper? If it’s a gradual, if it’s excessive, if builders have a number of energy in adoption, going for a lot of builders and simply getting the phrase out as broad as potential is a fairly viable technique. If it’s essential attain a high-level individual within the firm you may wish to set up shut relationships and work for extra CTOs or architects than particular person front-end devs. Proper? Does that make sense?

Felienne 00:16:27 Yeah. So, it’s very a lot tied additionally to what the mission of the corporate is, proper? As a result of certainly you may entice many builders, oh, I make this very enjoyable balloon to Slack or one thing however is that going to result in a paying buyer, or are you simply spending power of the advocates on hobbyists which are making enjoyable issues however will not be essentially resulting in extra prospects? So, I think about that it’s additionally very, very tied to what your enterprise mannequin is.

Joe Nash 00:16:54 Sure, precisely. Yeah. And I feel a very truly fascinating instance of that is Spotify, so Spotify have an API platform; you should use the Spotify API, you are able to do a bunch cool stuff with it, however what are the companies truly constructing on high of Spotify as — , constructing their enterprise on high of Spotify, its issues built-in sensible audio system and dashboards for vehicles and in these industries I imply, initially, they’re adopting Spotify for causes which are utterly orthoganal to the developer expertise. They need to combine Spotify regardless, proper? So, whether or not a developer likes the API or not is irrelevant. The authorized scenario, the authorized and copyright environment of integrating a music supplier into these techniques once more, additionally removes a number of energy from the developer making that alternative.

Joe Nash 00:17:45 After which {hardware} and automotive are each industries the place a developer doesn’t have a number of decision-making energy. In order that’s an awesome one the place I feel a very attention-grabbing instance of like Spotify investing in DevRel and so they have a public API and the DevRel of us can go and get a bunch of builders constructing on it, however does it essentially allow extra individuals to construct with Spotify, proper? Ordoes it affect the kind of firms which are constructing with Spotify? In all probability truly not. Nonetheless a great factor for them to be doing. It’s nonetheless, DevRel can having a great public going through API can do wonders for every kind of issues for an organization, particularly hiring. In case you are seen to be a developer pleasant firm, it’s quite a bit increased, quite a bit simpler to rent builders. In order that’s by no means one other a part of it, however yeah, it’s a tough query.

Felienne 00:18:35 Yeah, that’s attention-grabbing, that perspective of hiring, this is perhaps one more reason, proper? Why firms have developer relationships — not essentially to point out that is the way you construct on a platform, or that is how cool our platform is, however extra to point out we’re an organization that cares about builders and due to this fact come work for us, proper? Is that this additionally one thing that’s usually seen because the accountability of DevRel, or is that this like, within the HR division and that is solely out of your scope sometimes?

Joe Nash 00:19:04 Yeah, once more, it could actually fluctuate. It’s sufficient of like overlap with expertise is one other factor that some DevRel groups do — and a few DevRel groups are constructed round this precept. So, I simply talked about Spotify there and their API; Spotify have a developer-facing product known as Backstage, which is an inside instrument that they constructed for their very own utilization after which they began evangelizing exterior in the same method to Fb and React, and so they’ve received a DevRel staff for Backstage. And that’s nothing to do with Spotify’s product. That’s purely, we’ve constructed a cool developer instrument; we expect it’s good, it’s good for the corporate, for builders to assume it’s good, so let’s assist advocate it. So, that’s a developer relations staff that has sort of been based with that concept that there’s, they’re most likely largely a model positioning factor, proper?

Joe Nash 00:19:49 And you’ll arguably say the identical in some ways about any developer who works on one thing. Like React. React isn’t associated to Fb’s enterprise as a social media firm, proper? It doesn’t get extra individuals to log into Fb and add photographs of their canines. However Fb wants a number of builders. React could be very, highly regarded and has had a huge effect on the developer ecosystem. So being a developer advocate engaged on React, you’re primarily engaged on Fb, the model. And so, you should have developer relations groups the place that’s the core premise, that’s what you’re doing. And it’s fairly clear from the skin while you go to work on a staff like that, that’s, oh, I’m not engaged on the product that pays the payments. I’m engaged on a product that helps us construct the corporate that pays the payments. Proper?

Felienne 00:20:38 Think about individuals wish to turn out to be a developer relations individual. How do you do this? And possibly we are able to begin along with your path. Did you go from being a programmer to being an advocate? How is your course of, and the way is the everyday course of in as far as that?

Joe Nash 00:20:54 My path is admittedly bizarre and possibly not usually relevant. My path is by way of hackathons, which isn’t itself unusual. So of us who aren’t conscious, hackathon is sort of a programming journey marathons. So sometimes, you’ll spend a number of days in a room with a few hundred different individuals simply constructing cool stuff. There could also be prizes, there is probably not. There’s community-driven hackathons, company-driven hackathons. I used to be very concerned in scholar hackathons after I was in college, but in addition used to go to some skilled hackathons, and a kind of was PayPal’s hackathon, which not exists, however it was known as Battle Hack. And Battle Hack was sort of a World Cup setup, in order that they’d maintain it in each metropolis after which they’d fly the winners out to their workplace in Silicon Valley the place you’d compete for some foolish prize cash.

Joe Nash 00:21:37 My staff gained in London and so we went to the finals. We have been considered one of two scholar groups there, after which we received completely demolished. We had no likelihood of profitable in any way. However after that I stated to the PayPal developer relations staff, hey, that is the perfect hackathon I’ve ever been to. I manage hackathons myself as a scholar, how do I be part of this staff? And so, they opened an internship place for me, and I joined as an intern. And yeah, then after I graduated and I went on to begin doing a PhD in basically programming language design, as a result of I had this sense that being a developer was far tougher than it must be, and I needed to work on that. After which I used to be up there in distant Scotland engaged on this PhD and was sort of like, oh wait, I can receives a commission to assist builders as an alternative, I’m going to go be part of PayPal full time.

Joe Nash 00:22:30 And so, my path was very, very bizarre. Sure. So not quite a bit that’s relevant there, however usually talking, I might say the commonalities there that I might actually advocate is interfacing with developer communities. So, I feel considered one of, and I don’t essentially assume it is a extensively held perception, however I feel one of the essential issues about developer relations and why it exists, and why developer communities look they do, and why we go to all these conferences and this type of factor, is finally that software program engineering is a occupation with an uncommon diploma of lifelong studying, proper? Due to the tempo of expertise, software program engineers have to replace their expertise and study new expertise at a tempo that’s most likely not seen essentially in different industries and different roles. And we flip to neighborhood to assist us do this.

Joe Nash 00:23:23 The place else are you going to study all this new stuff? Effectively, we’ve received the consultants talking on the onstage at a convention, proper? You don’t get, you don’t essentially get hackathons for carpenters with a whole bunch of individuals sitting in a room for twenty-four hours to learn to use a brand new chisel, proper? That’s one thing that’s pretty distinctive to software program engineering. And finally that’s sort of the, it’s a really distinctive half about being a software program engineer. And collaborating in these communities I feel is admittedly essential for our development as software program engineers. But additionally gives a very nice launching off level for a developer relations individual. Go discover your native meetup. Go discover, go tune right into a stream for a product you’re fascinated about, discover an Open-Supply developer and browse that weblog. Get to know builders round you, study new expertise and work out how one can contribute.

Joe Nash 00:24:10 And I feel that’s most likely the perfect path into developer relations. A lot of firms hiring for early-stage developer advocates can be fascinated about your technical proficiency. And your skill to speak that expertise and what different, what writing and what talking you’ve already finished, however finally they’re in search of individuals who perceive that expertise and perceive the neighborhood round that expertise who’s assured in speaking to others in that neighborhood and distributing a message by way of that neighborhood. So simply go hang around with different devs in your space is the simplest manner.

Felienne 00:24:45 Good. That’s nice recommendation for those that wish to possibly discover this path. However you hinted at this to start with of the episode already, like what’s the function of programming? and the way do you retain your talent in programming up-to-date? So let’s first begin with this primary query: How essential a part of your job is programming? Do you ever nonetheless program? Do you construct prototypes? Do you truly develop the merchandise that you just work on?

Joe Nash 00:25:09 Yeah, so once more, it will fluctuate tremendous extensively relying on the skew of the DevRel staff, however usually talking for a developer advocate, developer evangelist, being technically proficient might be pretty essential as a result of it’s going to drive a number of the content material. Some developer advocates will write extra code as a part of their outreach efforts than others. So, some might need stay coding or demo-driven content material or talks. Some might get instantly concerned in issues like the upkeep of SDKs or documentation. However there are undoubtedly roles inside developer relations departments to swimsuit sort of all ranges of technical proficiency, I might say. So, as a number of developer relations groups are increasingly more encompassing issues documentation and developer expertise. So, there’s quite a few DevRel groups the place it’s truly the developer relations staff that owns the SDKs or the developer-facing elements of the product as merchandise. And so they preserve these as merchandise.

Joe Nash 00:26:16 And so there can be engineers who’re centered on engineering inside developer relations, and so they’ll get to expertise a few of what makes developer relations distinctive when it comes to the positioning to the shopper and being in contact with builders and incorporating developer suggestions extra instantly, however they’re nonetheless doing engineering. So usually I might say understanding how a lot a job requires, a job will assist you to code or not assist you to code goes to return right down to the job itemizing and asking some prudent questions within the interview course of. I might say developer relations, if you will discover a job that’s on — in case you are desirous to code extra, discovering a job the place the developer relations staff is concerned within the improvement of SDKs or client- or developer-facing merchandise goes to be actually essential. However there’s additionally a number of enjoyable and pleasure in engaged on demos and stuff. I feel that’s, I undoubtedly, I stated it’s very uncommon that you just’ll get to actually plow into some scaled utility stage code, however having the ability to simply work on enjoyable merchandise and churn them out and discover narratives to — to search out inspiring issues to construct in your firm’s merchandise could be very enjoyable.

Felienne 00:27:30 And that does result in the query, in fact, of tips on how to preserve your expertise up to date as a result of your buyer finally is also a programmer. So, it’s important to perceive what are the challenges of programmers in the present day, each normally in working with programming techniques, but in addition particularly within the instrument that you just wish to market to builders. How do you retain that talent up-to-date? Particularly, you’re already referring to our subject being a subject by which there’s numerous studying occurring. How do you handle that?

Joe Nash 00:27:58 Yeah, I feel it’s very straightforward to turn out to be a T-shaped individual in DevRel. So, since you’re at all times at these neighborhood occasions, you’re at all times experimenting with new issues to construct content material. It’s very straightforward to get very shallow expertise of numerous issues and to not essentially have the depth to go assist an implementation at scale in an organization. So, I feel that’s the bit that a number of DevRel of us wrestle with. I feel the easiest way of coping with that for lots of oldsters is — nicely, I say “take care of that.” I imply, a part of it you may settle for that you just’re simply not, that’s not your function; that there’s some extent the place you hand that relationship off to an architect or gross sales engineer inside the group.

Joe Nash 00:28:43 However there are different methods the place of us have interaction in open supply, or they’ve their pet tasks. For instance, in my present function, my function is primarily instructing new college students about Twillio. And which means a number of doing the fundamentals. I train them what relaxation APIs are and or all this type of stuff. And I definitely study quite a bit myself there, however I don’t get to go tremendous in-depth. So I even have my pet product inside our — nicely, not ‘product,’ my pet venture — which began as a demo however is now beginning to get fairly large, and I preserve including to it and it’s rising in technical complexity, which I just do to make it possible for I do nonetheless understand how to do that stuff, proper? And I feel that’s the best way a number of issues go. You’ll usually discover truly, like Brian Douglas at GitHub is an efficient instance of this, the place he’s a developer advocate, however he’s constructed an unimaginable aspect venture round serving to individuals get into open supply. However that itself is an app that he’s constructing that makes use of a number of the applied sciences he’s advocating, and has a number of customers. And so, he’s attending to it’s serving his advocacy wants whereas additionally giving him an avenue to construct expertise.

Felienne 00:29:49 Yeah. So, the tip possibly there is perhaps to have some kind of pet venture, large or small, the place you may nonetheless proceed to be a developer kind of on the aspect, most likely not on the principle venture, so you may preserve your talent set up-to-date.

Joe Nash 00:30:03 Yeah, that and I might say in case you are involved about not writing sufficient code, control what the overlap between the DevRel staff and product is. You wish to search for groups which are concerned in SDK improvement. And finally, in case you are tremendous involved about not writing sufficient code, it’s potential which have developer advocate isn’t a job you’ll get pleasure from.

Felienne 00:30:24 Yeah. So, what you’re saying is that programming is simply a small a part of the job, and it is perhaps onerous to even preserve sufficient talent to correctly do your job, not to mention preserve your programming expertise alive for if you wish to return, if that’s the place you’re coming from to programming.

Joe Nash 00:30:39 I feel I’d say it’s an excellent job for individuals who get pleasure from coding however who wouldn’t get pleasure from coding nine-to-five full time.

Felienne 00:30:49 Yeah, that is smart. Let’s transfer on to the subsequent matter that we wish to speak about. We talked about programming, we talked in regards to the expertise that you’ve got as a developer advocate, however what about content material improvement? You talked about that early within the episode, I might write blogs and movies and talks. How a lot of the job is that this content material creation? And likewise there, how are you aware you’re heading in the right direction? Is there quite a few weblog posts it’s important to write or quite a few followers it’s important to purchase on Twitter? How does that a part of the job appear like?

Joe Nash 00:31:22 Positive. And once more, sorry to maintain saying it relies upon, however it does rely.

Felienne 00:31:25 We perceive, we are able to hear some examples of what it would appear like?

Joe Nash 00:31:29 So for a developer advocate it’s going to rely, it’s going to be a reasonably large a part of the function. So, that outreach-driven aspect of develop relations content material as stated is a really efficient tactic to succeed in builders. Builders have to continuously be trying stuff up. They should continuously be refreshing their expertise. So, creating content material and getting content material within the distinguished locations, being seen on Slack Overflow, on Hacker Information, on dev.to, these sort of issues, is a good tactic. Weblog posts additionally function actually helpful entry level to a extra technical documentation. So, it’s usually quite a bit simpler to search out blogs simply as a consequence of nature of search engine optimisation than it’s to search out exact technical documentation. And so, having of us engaged on weblog posts can actually assist builders within the lifecycle of utilizing your merchandise.

Joe Nash 00:32:27 So it does are inclined to take up quite a bit. The place you will note it having a extra distinguished function will certainly be in platform firms the place they’re making an attempt to serve broad swathes of the developer ecosystems. Once more, Twillio’s an attention-grabbing instance the place any firm can use Twillio, your tech stack doesn’t actually matter. We’re a REST API, we have now wrappers for every kind of languages. And so you find yourself with numerous construct X with Y, proper? How one can use Twillio should you’re a Ruby on Rails app, and tips on how to use this product with this language. And so these sort of firms the place you’ve got, you may have that X with Y formulation, you’ll have a number of, most likely a number of weblog content material being made.

Joe Nash 00:33:17 By way of success and measuring that success, once more there’s the usual measures: hey, is that this weblog submit being seen? Is that this weblog submit showing in locations? Is it being profitable in ranked feeds? But it surely’s onerous to translate self-importance metrics into precise enterprise worth until you’ve got an attribution mechanism. So, do you’ve got a manner of — like, do you’ve got a free trial or a credit-based system the place you may say, hey, we all know that some builders signed as much as us for the primary time due to this weblog submit. Or can we see, hey, this weblog submit is speaking a couple of explicit demo utility, and we are able to see {that a} bunch of builders are utilizing that demo utility, proper? So, you actually need to truly have a mechanism of in search of precise developer exercise, precise have interaction builders, builders truly constructing with the product builders, hitting your API endpoint, builders integrating the product. And that must be fairly a holistic a part of the content material. You’ll be able to’t simply, if you wish to see precise product utilization, it’s onerous to only sort of write a high-level weblog after which throw in on the finish and right here’s a demo, you might test tat out should you needed to. The demo must be helpful, must be one thing that they’d truly use experimenting with the product, must be on the important path.

Felienne 00:34:37 After which the subsequent query can be, how are you aware this stuff? How are you aware what the important path is? Do you’ve got some kind of group of person builders round you that provide you with suggestions? I do know typically these weblog posts have this little thumbs up, thumb down, was this content material useful to you? How do you even know should you’re on the precise path? I imply, fairly often I search for tutorials and I’m like none of that is what would assist me to get began. However that is actually onerous to know since you’re such an professional of your individual merchandise, writing stuff for individuals that aren’t in any respect educated in something. How do you assume that?

Joe Nash 00:35:14 Sure, I feel this is among the, I suppose one of many the explanation why develop relations exists as its sort of personal factor relatively than simply being a technical author in advertising, proper? It’s that embedding of an individual who’s chargeable for that content material within the developer neighborhood at giant. You’ve the developer neighborhood who’s conscious of you, who’s conscious of your work, which you can go and say, hey, is this convenient? Is that this what you want? That I feel is the simplest and greatest manner to do this. I do assume that developer relations of us don’t essentially deal with the tutorial outcomes as a lot — or don’t contemplate the tutorial outcomes as essential to the success of the function as they need to do. That’s my private’s, my private soapbox, which I’m going to DevRelCon with regularly and is why I work on issues on papers we love.

Joe Nash 00:36:11 So I do assume that that may typically be uncared for, however normally, being in dialog with the developer neighborhood is a core perform of the function. And so, should you, if a developer relations individual is writing content material with out suggestions from the neighborhood, some a part of the cycle isn’t working as supposed there. So, I undoubtedly assume that’s, whether or not you name it a spotlight group or whether or not it’s only a group of oldsters you belief on Twitter who occur to go to the identical conferences as you, that group, that enter does have to exist for the function to perform.

Felienne 00:36:49 And possibly that very a lot relies upon as you’re saying, you’ve stated a bunch of instances, proper? It relies upon. It depends upon the kind of firm or merchandise, whether or not certainly that could be a focus group or individuals that you just hang around with naturally or that you just share in Discord with, proper?

Joe Nash 00:37:02 Yeah. So, the extra enterprise-focused issues, for instance, may have buyer advisory boards and they’ll have extra deliberately structured focus group-like setups. Once more, open supply has that as nicely. Open supply you’ll usually have like a council, for lack of a greater phrase, bigger customers of the open-source venture to, when an organization has an open supply venture that they use, that they preserve, they may usually have — not saying should you’re an open supply maintainer, you’re not working your individual council, the individuals use your product — however should you’re an organization utilizing open supply, you’ll usually have an open-source guiding steering physique, who might also enter as nicely.

Felienne 00:37:44 Let’s transfer on to the general public talking a part of the job, proper? So that could be a completely different type of content material creation, but in addition its personal factor. How do you go about discovering conferences? Do you, like common individuals, do you undergo a name for papers or classes, or is there a unique course of should you’re a developer advocate that you just use to get your self or your merchandise into conferences?

Joe Nash 00:38:09 So, how do you discover conferences is unquestionably one thing that’s modified over time. Like, the halcyon days of Lanyard, which have been truthfully most likely the perfect time for locating conferences. There are every kind of aggregators. Usually and once more, each developer relations individual has their sort of pet conferences that they know from their neighborhood. Usually individuals get into DevRel by way of being seen in the neighborhood and that can be by way of these occasions. After which there is part of the cycle the place it’s, okay it’s time to go do my CFPs for the yr. I’m going to go discover conferences which are addressing these themes, these subjects, and also you undergo them. The precise technique for submitting talks. numerous individuals go about it in several methods. So, for instance, to place it bluntly, submitting to CFPs is a numbers sport, proper?

Joe Nash 00:38:52 CFP, so requires papers, the best way that conferences take speak submissions and the best way that they settle for them, these processes will be pushed in another way in numerous alternative ways. However there’s essentially going to be somebody reviewing them. You’re going to be up towards different actually gifted audio system and there’s a lot content material on the market and so many conferences on the market. So usually, to just be sure you can keep busy all year long, you’re going to be submitting to a number of them, and also you’re going to be most likely getting accepted to quite a bit fewer than you undergo. So, individuals can strategy that in several methods. I feel this is among the earliest factors of stress or frustration or burnout that developer relations individuals hit the place they have a look at a convention and so they craft of a bespoke speak for that convention, and so they do these 30 instances after which 10% get accepted.

Joe Nash 00:39:43 And that’s very unhappy and nerve-racking, and also you’ve put a number of work in. So, I feel what tends to occur is individuals will sort of work on their talks for the yr to 3 talks for the yr. They’ll discover acceptable boards for these talks, and so they’ll submit them, and so they’ll see what occurs. The way you submit as a developer advocate, and what function the product has in that’s, once more, at all times a rigidity level. We’re embedded in our communities, we’re a part of these communities, we wish our content material we do to be priceless. We don’t simply wish to go do advertisements in every single place, however payments should be paid. So, understanding how one can signify your organization in a manner that’s helpful for builders is at all times difficult. A lot of conferences may have sponsored tracks and infrequently that’s simply the perfect factor to do, proper?

Joe Nash 00:40:21 If it’s essential talk firm message, it’s essential do the product demo, and there’s a manner the place you may clearly say ‘it is a product demo.’ Nobody is being tricked into attending this. Everybody is aware of what they’re getting once they come right here. In the event that they’re , they will come right here, however they know we’ve paid for this slot. That is going to be in regards to the firm, that’s nice. In case you’re a developer advocate who works on a product that has attention-grabbing parallel issues to speak about. So, you get to speak about your merchandise, your organization’s expertise, and the way they construct the issues they do, and it’s not identical to, use our product, that’s additionally actually nice. Effectively typically you might simply be actually fortunate, and you’re employed on a product that’s simply attention-grabbing to builders no matter whether or not it’s a demo, proper?

Joe Nash 00:40:56 Like Kubernetes and React are good examples the place you may simply go speak about tips on how to do one thing in Kubernetes, and should you occur to work for somebody who sells Kubernetes, okay that’s effective, you are able to do that speak, proper? I feel the important thing to submitting talks is be sure you’re truly contributing worth. Ensure that it’s a scalable course of as a result of it’s essential be doing it quite a bit, and just be sure you will not be going to be stunning the attendees on the convention that they’re anticipating to see what they’re going to see, and that they’re not going to assume there’s been a rug pull with the content material they’ve seen and what you’ve truly introduced.

Felienne 00:41:28 Yeah, not I can really feel so them they unintentionally run into an advert, oh proper, this isn’t I’m not studying simply I’m being offered one thing.

Joe Nash 00:41:36 Yeah completely. And that’s a very onerous line to stroll.

Felienne 00:41:39 Yeah, in fact.

Joe Nash 00:41:40 And a few of us do it higher than others.

Felienne 00:41:41 And I feel that is even true for builders speaking about merchandise in the event that they’re not developer relations individuals, proper? Generally individuals get actually enthusiastic about, look this cool factor I constructed, then it additionally may sound like an advert regardless that they’re not actually promoting one thing. It’s like, oh I constructed this platform and nicely …

Joe Nash 00:41:57 If it’s a expertise they’re utilizing that they actually like, it may be very easy to unintentionally derail your convention speak into simply sort of promoting a expertise that, like, whether or not it’s acceptable for another person it’s going to rely. And it’s probably not the helpful a part of the speak, however yeah.

Felienne 00:42:12 Yeah. So, after which that course of does to me sound quite a bit like different individuals which are submitting convention talks, proper? It’s a must to develop it slightly bit. Sure, it’ll be a bit too unhappy if it’s rejected. So, it doesn’t sound too completely different from — we have now had different episodes that we are going to hyperlink to about public talking and tips on how to get into public talking extra normally. And that appears to speak a couple of fairly comparable course of. Thus far, we’ve very a lot talked in regards to the exterior, the outgoing a part of being a developer relationships individual, however what in regards to the inward half, proper? Inside the firm, I think about you’ve got interactions with everybody, with builders within the firm, with advertising, with gross sales, with HR possibly even should you’re additionally doing this hiring-facing a part of the job. What does that search for you, and what does that appear like normally, the kind of collaborations you’ve got inside your individual firm?

Joe Nash 00:43:04 Positive. So yeah, in a super scenario, there’ll be numerous these overlaps. So, these overlaps have a tendency to return into play when you’ve got a enterprise perform within the firm that must be in contact with builders in a roundabout way. It’s actually helpful to have a developer relations individual within the room as a result of that developer relations individual goes to be a consultant of the builders. They’re in these communities, they know what they need, they understand how they really feel in regards to the firm, and they’re a great vibe-check and steering physique. In order that performs out in several methods in several firms, and in some firms just some departments overlap, some gained’t. The most important manner you’ll see this play out should you’re making an attempt to get into DevRel is while you see what’s the reporting construction for developer relations?

Joe Nash 00:43:43 Is it a standalone division? Very not often. It should usually report into advertising or into engineering, and the place it sits within the firm can inform you a large number about these overlaps. The most typical overlaps are undoubtedly advertising. Advertising might be, Advertising and Engineering are probably the most vital ones. Advertising can be as a result of, as we’ve spoken about quite a bit with a number of the most distinguished roles in developer relations, there’s a number of outward-facing outreach and consciousness constructing and you’ve got a job within the funnel. Engineering will come round from the opposite finish of the suggestions loop. So, developer relations may have an overlap with engineering as a result of they’re simply getting a number of suggestions instantly from builders. They’re speaking to the individuals utilizing the product. And so, it’s essential to have a manner that that makes it into engineering.

Joe Nash 00:44:26 Gross sales will usually be concerned for a really comparable purpose. I’ve had roles, notably at GitHub, the place I received concerned within the gross sales cycle simply because I occurred to be a technical public-facing individual within the area, proper? So, I very often ended up speaking to, oh nicely I used to be notably centered on academic use circumstances, and I used to be centered on college students, however as a result of I knew the tutorial use case, I’d get introduced in to talk to a college that needed to purchase GitHub enterprise, proper? And that sort of factor. And in order that’s additionally pretty widespread. The opposite, I feel as we’ve spoken slightly bit about expertise as nicely, that can usually come into play simply because once more, develop errelations individuals are in the neighborhood in order that they know that individuals are in search of jobs; they’re going to locations the place individuals are in search of jobs.

Joe Nash 00:45:07 Individuals search for jobs at these occasions. And so, in case you have jobs, if your organization’s hiring jobs and also you get pleasure from the place you’re employed, it’s at all times very good to have the ability to say, hey, you’ve simply watched me do a chat. In case you appreciated this speak, come work with us. Proper? It’s very straightforward to do this. I feel the place it could actually get most difficult is with possession and attribution although, since you overlap with so many departments, you find yourself having a stake in numerous issues, however although it may be tough to combine that overlap into your individual measures for fulfillment or how you’re evaluated, proper? So, if I’m evaluated on variety of builders that signal as much as the platform, my relationship with expertise most likely isn’t serving to that, proper? So, something I do for expertise isn’t essentially serving to, or if I spend a number of time supporting a person buyer that’s not essentially contributing to the numbers. So, I feel that is the place the overlap, the place there’s some rigidity for DevRel in constructing relationships. A lot of departments is, they usually are a service supplier internally, they supply one thing numerous departments need, however it’s onerous to quantify that worth with all these completely different — you may get thanked, you may get acknowledged for these departments, however simply numerous little tidbits right here and there doesn’t essentially make a cohesive inside narrative.

Felienne 00:46:22 Yeah. So everybody may such as you as an worker since you’re serving to everybody, proper? However that may not be an efficient one.

Joe Nash 00:46:28 Impact of that.

Felienne 00:46:29 Yeah,

Joe Nash 00:46:30 Yeah, precisely.

Felienne 00:46:31 So we talked about, gross sales and advertising, however you additionally briefly talked about engineering. And I wish to go slightly bit deeper there as a result of in a way possibly you’re additionally typically the primary buyer of some merchandise that your organization is constructing, proper? In the event that they construct an API, possibly you’re the first one to attempt the API within the strategy of working towards it, making a weblog submit about utilizing the API. That’s, possibly you’re there as the primary buyer, possibly additionally fixing bugs. What sometimes is the connection that each one of you’ve got inside engineering in firms or inside programming or builders?

Joe Nash 00:47:07 So, what you simply described can be the best scenario. I’ll let you know that doesn’t usually play out and that’s largely simply because the stress to ship. So, we spoke about more and more developer-facing firms wish to do the large splashy launch on the annual convention, and in these circumstances, issues are at all times towards the deadline. The convention date is the goal. And so, there’s usually not as lengthy an inside interval to play with issues as you’d hope, or as a developer relations individual wants. However in a super world, that’s the scenario. If developer relations will get concerned within the content material for a product launch, and that is truly, I’d truly say that is most likely extra an overlap with product advertising than is with engineering. As a result of that can often be how that relationship occurs, proper?

Joe Nash 00:47:49 So for the weblog submit to finish up being written by developer relations, the pre-launch weblog submit or the pre-launch demos to be written by developer relations, they’re most likely being concerned in a product advertising effort, proper? However yeah, having that avenue into product managers and having the ability to say, hey, I performed with the pre-release model, right here’s the friction I had. It’s very priceless. I feel, these days particularly, and I do assume firms GitHub have sort of made this commonplace. These days, you’ll usually have protracted public alphas that take care of that half, the interior pre-release cycle of it. So usually web site will go stay within the public alpha and developer expertise points will get ironed out then and develop relations individuals can be essential in that cycle. As a result of once more, they’re an avenue for suggestions. They’ll most likely be selling the alpha; they’ll be speaking with of us throughout the alpha. However when it comes to being the primary buyer, I feel that’s comparatively unusual for the explanations I discussed.

Felienne 00:48:43 Ah, that could be a pity as a result of yeah, as you have been saying, that might be a pleasant trajectory the place first you take a look at it kind of internally and possibly a number of the fixes you may even make your self, whereas common prospects exterior of the corporate in fact it might be tougher for them to iron out little points in an alpha.

Joe Nash 00:48:58 Yeah. It usually comes — and once more, somebody will hear this and say that they’re opposite to the purpose, and that they’re the primary buyer — however I feel the engineering collaborations have a tendency to return after first publicity to the general public. It’ll be a developer has gotten maintain of the API and has suggestions and that can get again in to engineering by way of a developer advocate. That can usually be the connection with engineering. It’ll be the opposite finish of the suggestions cycle, and it’ll be the individuals who the primary prospects come to relatively than be within the first prospects themselves.

Felienne 00:49:29 Yeah, that makes complete sense. Suppose individuals which are listening are fascinated about exploring such a profession. What are a number of the sources, I suppose if you wish to study a brand new programming language, we kind of all know what are the paths to that. One factor I feel you already talked about was one thing known as DevRelCon, like a convention particularly? Is {that a} good place to get began or do you’ve got books, blogs, movies to discover this path?

Joe Nash 00:49:55 So DevRelCon is a developer operations convention organized by a consultancy known as Hoopy. It’s Matthew Ravel. It’s great. It’s a convention for DevRel practitioners. I might not essentially advocate shelling out and attending it in case you are not but in DevRel, however should you’re fascinated about DevRel. However what I might advocate doing goes over to the YouTube channel, going to developerrelations.com and testing the big backlog of movies. All of the talks have been recorded. You could find all of them, there have been the convention has been working a very long time now and it’s for DevRel practitioners, so there’s a number of stuff in-depth there that’s most likely not tremendous helpful should you’re simply beginning out. However there have been additions of the convention centered on early-in-career developer relations of us and moving into trade. So that you’ll undoubtedly discover these talks.

Joe Nash 00:50:37 I feel one other actually nice useful resource is Mary Thengvall’s publication. Mary Thengvall has an exquisite publication that additionally usually consists of job posts. Finally, I feel the perfect factor you are able to do although is to go and select a developer product you want, select an API you want, select a instrument you want, and hit the touchdown web page and fake you’ve by no means seen it earlier than. And put your self within the mindset of a developer who’s assessing this instrument to see if they need to use it at work, and undergo that journey and see what you assume, see how fast it takes you to make your first API request, see what friction you hit, see what docs you assume aren’t fairly clear sufficient. And having finished that course of, distill these ideas, write one thing down after which replicate and say, hey, did I get pleasure from doing that? I is perhaps a developer relations individual. That might be what I might advocate.

Felienne 00:51:25 That’s an effective way to get began. And naturally, a number of the expertise that we talked about additionally, as I already stated, have been coated in different episodes. So technical writing or changing into a public speaker, should you would wish to work on a few of these subskills, a few of our older episodes may also assist and different sources to work particularly on these completely different expertise.

Joe Nash 00:51:44 One factor I’d warning on that slightly — nicely, sorry, I’d say warning — it’s, I feel moving into developer relations typically can fall into the identical lure as moving into software program engineering. A lot of individuals say, oh go contribute to a great deal of open supply. That’s a great way to get into software program engineering, proper? And I feel the identical can sort of occur to DevRel the place it’s very straightforward to say ‘go give a load of talks,’ however they take a number of time and work, and never everybody can afford to do this as a part of their profession change. There are undoubtedly, there can be job listings on the market that say, hey, we wish you to have this many Twitter followers and have finished this many talks. However there are job roles on the market for early-in-career DevRel individuals the place they may simply have a look at the expertise you’ve got as a software program engineer and gained’t have required you to do the job of a DevRel earlier than you’re a DevRel, proper? So, should you see job postings that require you to do a load of labor you don’t have time to do within the profession swap, don’t be discouraged. Jobs do exist for early, early-career DevRel jobs do exist.

Felienne 00:52:42 Ah, nice. Effectively, it is a excellent recommendation. I feel that’s many of the issues I needed to speak about. Do you assume there’s something we missed? Any angle about this a part of the job that you just nonetheless wish to speak about?

Joe Nash 00:52:53 I don’t assume so. I feel your questions are very far. Thanks.

Felienne 00:52:56 Yeah. Implausible. Thanks a lot. So, then what about you? Suppose the viewers desires to comply with you? What are the perfect locations to remain updated with the work that you’re doing?

Joe Nash 00:53:05 Positive. So, I’m @jna_sh on Twitter, and also you’ll most likely discover me should you simply search Joe Nash.

Felienne 00:53:11 We are going to add it to the present notes as nicely.

Joe Nash 00:53:13 Excellent. In case you are fascinated about developer training, that’s the place I spend a number of my time these days. I run a meetup known as Papers We Love Training, which is a paper studying group for pc science training papers, and I work on an academic sport known as TwillioQuest, so I like to recommend checking these out as nicely.

Felienne 00:53:29 Yeah, so we’ll undoubtedly add all these hyperlinks to the present notes so individuals can test them out. Thanks for being on the present in the present day.

Joe Nash 00:53:35 Thanks a lot for having me.

[End of Audio]

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